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Post by siobhan on Jul 9, 2014 11:35:44 GMT -8
When addressing the lack of diversity in literature, is it about the lack of stories with diverse characters or is it about the lack of minority writers writing about their experiences?
I am a member of a few message boards for authors. I also try to remain tuned into twitter trends about readership and demand. Over the last year, there have been a few trending events around the lack of diversity in literature. From my observation, it seemed like most minority readers were protesting the lack of minority authors and the lack of stories with authentic minority characters. I remember looking at twitter and seeing authors--many of them white--posting links to their stories that happened to have minority characters.
That experience didn't sit well with me. I felt like it was manipulation or exploitation for them to do this. I think when a minority reader is saying that they want stories with minority characters, they don't strictly mean a story that happens to have a main character with a brown face and an "ethnic" name. I think what they are really looking for is a story that reflects the culture or community of which they belong. They want to immerse themselves in an authentic experience.
I think some authors jumped on the bandwagon knowing that there is a lack of diversity in fiction, but some--or many of them--failed in their execution of these stories.
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Post by lmsands on Jul 9, 2014 12:28:02 GMT -8
I wholeheartedly agree with your feelings on the subject. Often touting the slogan that there's no race besides the human race, I do get the feeling sometimes that certain people don't recognize the nuances that are embraced and appreciated within ethnic cultures. To simply color a characters skin and link them to a certain history doesn't get the job done.
Leaning toward the 'lack of minority writers writing about their experiences' explanation, I'm hoping that this will change the more people learn about self-publishing. I think we also need more visibility within the indie niche.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2014 12:28:19 GMT -8
I grew up with white people. I was the only black girl in school, that type of thing. I'm comfortable with white people, and I'm comfortable incorporating white characters into my fiction. If I want to incorporate a minority character, I do, but not because I'm supposed to. It's because I want to. I'm leery of any conversation that tells me that because I'm a black woman, I have to do this, or that.
I don't have to do anything.
I write the stories I want to write, regardless of what color my characters are. I'm also comfortable reading books of all types. Some of that literature includes minority characters, but a lot of it doesn't.
Having said that, in my history as a writer, in many ways, I've contributed to literature containing minorities. In fact, I was the first anthology editor to publish a collection of women-of-color lesbian erotica. The book is Iridescence: Sensuous Shades of Lesbian Erotica, published by the no longer in operation Alyson Books. When my book was published, there was no other book of its kind. It contains stories about African American women, Latina women, Asian women, First Nations women, etc.
So yeah, if a person is dissatisfied with the amount of literature containing minorities out there - write a book. Contribute to what you feel is lacking.
Talk is cheap. If you don't like something, then do something about it. It's real easy to complain. It's a lot harder to do something about it.
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lbrw
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Post by lbrw on Jul 9, 2014 14:19:23 GMT -8
Yes, I remember the hoopla when Spike Lee said something about Tyler Perry movies and everyone got up in arms that a Black man was criticizing another Black man's art, blahblahblah.
The point is if there's a gap in what you want to read or view or experience, fill it.
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Post by lmsands on Jul 9, 2014 14:31:02 GMT -8
While I agree with the 'If you don't like it, change it' sentiment, one, two or ten authors can't change the landscape alone. What are some of the ways that we can encourage first-time Black authors to go the indie route and tell their stories? Especially young adults (18-30)? I'm emphasizing indie since so few still realize its potential.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2014 16:48:18 GMT -8
While I agree with the 'If you don't like it, change it' sentiment, one, two or ten authors can't change the landscape alone. What are some of the ways that we can encourage first-time Black authors to go the indie route and tell their stories? Especially young adults (18-30)? I'm emphasizing indie since so few still realize its potential. I inform as many people as I can by my words and by my actions. But here's the problem: You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. Many people will: 1. Say they want to write a book, but will never actually do it. 2. Still have no faith in the indie route and insist that the trade route is the only way to go even though they've had zero success on the trade route. (You're not a "real" author unless you go trade.) 3. Have started a book, but will never actually finish one. So if you can cut through all that, you'll make some headway.
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Post by lmsands on Jul 9, 2014 17:11:07 GMT -8
Your #2 is the one that reallllllly gets me, Jolie. Ugh! Some people...
No matter the evidence, they insist on believing it can't be done.
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lbrw
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Post by lbrw on Jul 9, 2014 18:38:17 GMT -8
But see, it's exactly those one, two or ten authors who can change the landscape.
Heck, ants can move mountains. Drips of water errode steel.
The important message young people need to hear is that words and thoughts are power. When governments are toppled, one of the first things destroyed are written works. Why? Because of the power of words to convey thoughts and ideas.
This was the underlying subversion going on in "that" thread. Non-writing readers recognize the power of writers. They resent it, though, even on the most innocent level. And the overtly hostile of them are that way because when you recognize the power in something that you cannot do (either due to lack of talent or lack of work ethic), especially if you feel that those who can do it are inferior to you, it's frustrating.
How dare that idiot/minority/dwarf/fatso be able to write a book when I never have gotten that far!
The next step being to make what you crave but cannot have as unattractive as possible to lookerson.
I don't know why anyone would want to waste their time doing that anyway. They'll never get famous/be rich/be pretty like I am. [insert nervous laughter by the easily led, directed at the one who has done what the envious one cannot.]
Hitler scorned the Jews because he could never be one. His Jewish lineage was on the wrong side, paternal instead of maternal. Hitler's solution: I hate them! Kill em all!
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Post by siobhan on Jul 9, 2014 20:12:28 GMT -8
I feel strongly that the indie route is the most effective way to address the lack of diversity in publishing. There's a huge demand for street/urban lit but I don't recall one single agent asking for that in the #MSWL. I don't see many entries when they are doing query contests.
I spent several months querying agents and following the trade publishing route. I know that their bottom line is to find a story that they can successfully pitch to a big time publisher. Publishers want stories that they can sell to the mainstream audience. Readers of street/urban lit aren't mainstream.
It's like a never ending cycle. Publishers want to cater to readers by publishing more stories with diverse characters but they aren't going to take a chance on a story that has too narrow of an audience.
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lbrw
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Post by lbrw on Jul 10, 2014 5:51:32 GMT -8
If you follow the stories of Triple Crown and others who, back in the 80s and 90s, had their street lit books printed on their own and sold them out of the trunks of cars and at beauty salons and laundrymats (like the bootleg DVD guys) you see that they followed the same path as any minority (not necessarily racial minority).
Political minority groups have self published their leaflets and chapbooks for centuries. Religious minorities, too.
Any group outside the mainstream default who self-publishes stands to regain their power to express ideas and thoughts from the viewpoint of their group.
The problem is that some minority individuals feel that they can only be validated by appealing to the mainstream. I'm not judging them, but it's the same reason that many uber successful minority celebrities, etc end up on the arm of what they feel is the ultimate prize, a blonde White woman. Validation sought from the mainstream default.
Cries of "I have no problem with White people" can be heard by some. Let me be clear, as someone who is often mistaken for White by Whites, you make not have a problem with them, but many have unacknowledged problems with proximity to minorities. They may not express it to your face, but trust me, you are being treated with kid gloves publicly and privately there is a completely different dialogue between them about you. ("You" being a general term, not directed at anyone in particular.)
I know because when White folks have assumed me to be White, I hear what they wouldn't dare say in front of someone who presents physically as Black. They get into a comfort zone and lots of truths come out, including racially insulting remarks (Yeah, "that" word, too). I've actually had a White person tell me that they would never want to be Black. When I asked more, they hemmed and hawwed, but finally admitted that they would miss "White advantage". They admitted that they knew that being White gained them privileges that minorities weren't even aware of, including Oprah.
There are too many in my family who look like me to deny our Louisiana Creole/Caribbean Creole ancestry at work, but we are also acutely aware that if this planet ever tips on it's axis and things went back to the "good old days", White folks start cleaning house from dark to light. Lol.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2014 14:29:24 GMT -8
I'm an African American woman with a high self-esteem who has a white husband and biracial children. If I'm expected to have a problem with white people to be a member of this group, I'm in the wrong group.
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lbrw
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Post by lbrw on Jul 10, 2014 14:43:43 GMT -8
I'm an African American woman with a high self-esteem who has a white husband and biracial children. If I'm expected to have a problem with white people to be a member of this group, I'm in the wrong group. If that's all you got from my post then I don't have an answer for you. [shrugs] As a multiethnic Sephardic Jewish woman who is routinely mistaken for White by Whites ,with a very dark skinned Black ex-husband who fathered my Latino looking multiethnic children, I'm not sure what you need to hear right now to feel comfortable. I have a problem with bullies regardless of what color wrapper they come in and I don't pretend it's not reality. And I do speak on it. It's truth. Even in 2014. But of course, your mileage may vary.
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Post by shaynerutherford on Jul 10, 2014 15:07:27 GMT -8
This was the underlying subversion going on in "that" thread. Non-writing readers recognize the power of writers. They resent it, though, even on the most innocent level. And the overtly hostile of them are that way because when you recognize the power in something that you cannot do (either due to lack of talent or lack of work ethic), especially if you feel that those who can do it are inferior to you, it's frustrating. I think most non-writing readers are so oblivious to what it takes to write a novel that this would never cross their minds. They think it's easy, that anyone can do it. It's why skills like copywriting are so undervalued, because most people think that anyone can write words, that anyone can tell a story, and because of that delusion I think it's likely that most people will never waste their energy resenting writers. I suspect that it's the wanna-be writers who try and can't get published, or can't manage to attain a certain level of success that resent writers who actually do succeed.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2014 15:25:17 GMT -8
Lbrw, I'm a busy writer. So arguing with you, or anyone here, is not something I'm interested in.
If the group isn't for me, I'll leave. No biggie.
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lbrw
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Post by lbrw on Jul 10, 2014 15:48:33 GMT -8
Lbrw, I'm a busy writer. So arguing with you, or anyone here, is not something I'm interested in. If the group isn't for me, I'll leave. No biggie. Well, that's certainly your choice, but where have you seen me arguing with you? This is the first time we're talking. If you don't want me to reply to a direct question from you, just say so and I'll happily respect your wishes and if my posts aren't of interest to you, I won't be offended if you choose to ignore them. In your profile settings, under privacy, there is a feature that will allow you to put me and my posts on ignore if you like. Win/Win, no?
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lbrw
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Post by lbrw on Jul 10, 2014 15:50:31 GMT -8
This was the underlying subversion going on in "that" thread. Non-writing readers recognize the power of writers. They resent it, though, even on the most innocent level. And the overtly hostile of them are that way because when you recognize the power in something that you cannot do (either due to lack of talent or lack of work ethic), especially if you feel that those who can do it are inferior to you, it's frustrating. I think most non-writing readers are so oblivious to what it takes to write a novel that this would never cross their minds. They think it's easy, that anyone can do it. It's why skills like copywriting are so undervalued, because most people think that anyone can write words, that anyone can tell a story, and because of that delusion I think it's likely that most people will never waste their energy resenting writers. I suspect that it's the wanna-be writers who try and can't get published, or can't manage to attain a certain level of success that resent writers who actually do succeed. You might be correct, but wouldn't you still call them non-writing readers or no?
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Post by shaynerutherford on Jul 10, 2014 16:25:08 GMT -8
I think most non-writing readers are so oblivious to what it takes to write a novel that this would never cross their minds. They think it's easy, that anyone can do it. It's why skills like copywriting are so undervalued, because most people think that anyone can write words, that anyone can tell a story, and because of that delusion I think it's likely that most people will never waste their energy resenting writers. I suspect that it's the wanna-be writers who try and can't get published, or can't manage to attain a certain level of success that resent writers who actually do succeed. You might be correct, but wouldn't you still call them non-writing readers or no? In my experience there is a big difference between a reader like, for example, my mom, who adores books and loves to read but has zero aspirations toward being a writer, and someone who wants to be a writer but doesn't have the work ethic/self-discipline to get their butt in the chair and crank out the words with any consistency. Those folks want to be writers, they want to have written, but when it comes to sacrificing something so they can spend time writing, they aren't willing to make the sacrifice. They dabble a little bit here and there, but they don't treat it seriously. But they still want to be writers. That's my take on it, anyway. I guess, basically, I'd call them dabblers.
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lbrw
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Post by lbrw on Jul 10, 2014 16:30:22 GMT -8
You might be correct, but wouldn't you still call them non-writing readers or no? In my experience there is a big difference between a reader like, for example, my mom, who adores books and loves to read but has zero aspirations toward being a writer, and someone who wants to be a writer but doesn't have the work ethic/self-discipline to get their butt in the chair and crank out the words with any consistency. Those folks want to be writers, they want to have written, but when it comes to sacrificing something so they can spend time writing, they aren't willing to make the sacrifice. They dabble a little bit here and there, but they don't treat it seriously. But they still want to be writers. That's my take on it, anyway. I guess, basically, I'd call them dabblers. I feelya. What genre do you write in?
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Post by lmsands on Jul 10, 2014 16:40:21 GMT -8
Jolie, I hope you'll stick around. We're just getting started here and I believe there's room for everyone. LBRW, when you mention "that thread", what are you referring to? Shayna, 'dabblers', I like that description.
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Post by shaynerutherford on Jul 10, 2014 16:48:15 GMT -8
In my experience there is a big difference between a reader like, for example, my mom, who adores books and loves to read but has zero aspirations toward being a writer, and someone who wants to be a writer but doesn't have the work ethic/self-discipline to get their butt in the chair and crank out the words with any consistency. Those folks want to be writers, they want to have written, but when it comes to sacrificing something so they can spend time writing, they aren't willing to make the sacrifice. They dabble a little bit here and there, but they don't treat it seriously. But they still want to be writers. That's my take on it, anyway. I guess, basically, I'd call them dabblers. I feelya. What genre do you write in? I'll have a go at anything on the dark and mysterious side if an idea inspires me, but mostly mystery and paranormal suspense, and a bit of gothic and quiet horror (ghosts and psychological stuff that keeps the blood and violence to a minimum). What about you? What's your genre of choice?
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Post by shaynerutherford on Jul 10, 2014 16:50:04 GMT -8
Jolie, I hope you'll stick around. We're just getting started here and I believe there's room for everyone. LBRW, when you mention "that thread", what are you referring to? Shayna, 'dabblers', I like that description. It's the only word that really fit in my brain.
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lbrw
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Post by lbrw on Jul 10, 2014 17:00:27 GMT -8
LBRW, when you mention "that thread", what are you referring to? This private forum was started in part because of a post on a public forum which became a wankfest between writers (who were trying to have writerly discussion that had nothing to do with readers) and non-writing readers (some of whom have no writerly aspirations, some who have writerly aspirations but haven't written yet, some who haven't written and either do not have the talent or discipline to write yet resent writers, and some who simply "like to hang out with writers" and are oblivious the tension on that forum between non-writing readers and writers). The various types of readers had their own agenda and writers merely wanted to have one private area where they could talk to other writers about writing, without interruption from either well-meaning or non well-meaning readers. Sometimes grown folks want to talk without the kids underfoot, ya know? Readers were offended that writers aren't always interested in hearing from them on every topic, keeping in mind that on that same forum when writers were discussing reviews, readers told writers that they have no business complaining about reviews because reviews are a conversation between readers and writers are intruding to comment on them, even positively (interestingly enough named as though it's a place for writers, but catering to readers. Doh!) Erm, yeah. So, a writer who was looking for a way to connect minority potential writers with encouragement made this forum.
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lbrw
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Post by lbrw on Jul 10, 2014 17:03:09 GMT -8
I read and write romance. Everything from the sweetest/clean/wholesome romance where there's barely a kiss to the filthiest erotic romance where bodily fluids flow. I also write erotica. I have forever.
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Post by lmsands on Jul 10, 2014 17:16:08 GMT -8
LBRW, when you mention "that thread", what are you referring to? This private forum was started in part because of a post on a public forum which became a wankfest between writers (who were trying to have writerly discussion that had nothing to do with readers) and non-writing readers (some of whom have no writerly aspirations, some who have writerly aspirations but haven't written yet, some who haven't written and either do not have the talent or discipline to write yet resent writers, and some who simply "like to hang out with writers" and are oblivious the tension on that forum between non-writing readers and writers). The various types of readers had their own agenda and writers merely wanted to have one private area where they could talk to other writers about writing, without interruption from either well-meaning or non well-meaning readers. Sometimes grown folks want to talk without the kids underfoot, ya know? Readers were offended that writers aren't always interested in hearing from them on every topic, keeping in mind that on that same forum when writers were discussing reviews, readers told writers that they have no business complaining about reviews because reviews are a conversation between readers and writers are intruding to comment on them, even positively (interestingly enough named as though it's a place for writers, but catering to readers. Doh!) Erm, yeah. So, a writer who was looking for a way to connect minority potential writers with encouragement made this forum. Ah, ok, I didn't know any of the backstory, so thanks for bringing me up to speed. Sounds like it got pretty messy. I'm glad something good came out of all of that, though.
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lbrw
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Post by lbrw on Jul 10, 2014 17:27:00 GMT -8
I agree.
I had been searching for a minority writing forum for a long time to discuss minority specific writing, but I suspect either minority writers are writing alone or have assimilated into more general writer forums, which have their place, but sometimes there are discussions that won't happen because they make non-minorities feel some type of way.
Sorta like you have to work extra hard to be all-inclusive 24/7/365.
It can be exhausting to be that "politically correct", when you just wanna eat a piece of damned fried chicken, a side of collard greens and hot sauce, a slab of baked macaroni and cheese, drink a jelly jar of red Koolaid, lick your fingers and enjoy the "itis" with folks who'll understand.
Sheesh. Lol
Funny story, a filmmaking friend is friends with a N.Y. based White actor married forever to a Black woman and knowing this couple cracks me up to see him in a movie while knowing he's smelled hair being straightened using the old fashioned hot comb that you put on the stove (cuz she's an old school sistah and I just know she ain't using a curling iron).
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